Okay, it looks like you have done your homework and are well informed - that is great.
I have checked on sales of aluminum and steel boats in the size and age range and came up with the following:
Nothing really matches the boat you are interested this is just basic info to use as a guide.
Year and model Year Ask price Sell price date sold
1982 JimBetts 1982 29000 29000 4/30/99
This is the only aluminum hull I found.
Steel:
34' Roberts steel 1981 29,500 23,000 6/02 WA
34' Van der Werff 1978 41,000 35,000 12/99 NewZeal
33' Chatam PH 1982 47,000 45,000 5/02 USA
33' Chatam 1982 44,700 45,000 2/01 CANADA
33' Roberts Spray 1979 39,500 36,000 05/99 USA
Things you have going for yourself is that this boat has been on the market for some time with no action. It is an unusual type boat and not in big demand. I think that offering $30,000 or $35,000 as an opening offer would be fine. Bear in mind that people always counter back to an opening offer. I think I have only had one instance where the said fine - Japanese owners still residing in Japan.
It is unethical to solicit listings away from another brokerage and I would be fine with trying to work through the listing broker. It would also be okay for you to find out from the owner if her listing has expired or not. Since the boat is still in yacht world I imagine the listing is still active. Usually the listing stays active until the seller gives written notification of cancelling.
Let me know what you would like to do? I would be happy to call you to discuss if you send me your phone number.
Judy Nasmith (Dickinson)
Discovery Yachts
(206) 301-9104
>From: "judynasmith"
>To:
>Subject: Fw: inquiry
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:30:51 -0700
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "De Clarke"
>To: "judynasmith"
>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:44 PM
>Subject: Re: inquiry
>
>
> >
> > >> Thanks for your inquiry and the offer to act as your broker.
> > >> I checked the boat out on the internet and it looks like a
> > >> very interesting and stylish boat. My questions/objectives
> > >> are:
> >
> > >> 1) Why do you want an aluminum boat?
> >
> > hmmm. well, it scares me less than steel and less than
> > wood. if one is not wealthy (and I am not) then one should
> > really be an expert boat carpenter to take on a wooden hull;
> > I'm not much of a carpenter, certainly not a boat carpenter,
> > and I don't want the responsibility a wooden boat entails.
> > I love wooden boats and can look at them for hours ;-) but
> > the thought of owning one gives me the shivers.
> >
> > steel scares me because the rot sets in from the *inside* of
> > the hull, and is hard to spot. anything less than perfect
> > sealant on the interior and the leprosy takes hold. it's very
> > conducive to paranoia. some people I know with steel hulls
> > spend a lot of time crawling around with flashlights in their
> > teeth and a worried expression. I am told that with an alloy
> > hull the damage is likely to be on the outside, so at least you
> > can see it at haulout :-)
> >
> > I'm looking for an older boat (because of limited budget and a
> > preference for plain, simple boats). old steel boats are
> > pretty scary. old wooden boats are terrifying. old GRP boats
> > usually have osmosis and I don't like doing fibreglass work --
> > the nasty catalyst, the glass cloth, the dust... it's just
> > unpleasant. given a choice I prefer metalwork. so that sort
> > of leaves aluminium.
> >
> > what else... aluminium can be cut with hand tools. I've seen
> > alloy workboats survive the most outrageous abuse -- groundings
> > and collisions -- and keep floating, even with big dents in the
> > hull. I'm thinking of sailing, long-term, in the Pac NW and
> > Alaska where deadheads and logs abound, so a metal hull is
> > attractive. the insulation commonly found in metal hulls
> > is nice too if you are headed for very cold water :-)
> >
> > >> Older even newer aluminum boats can run into problems if
> > >> they sit in a marina due to electrolosis issues. Most
> > >> marinas are hot and even on a fiberglass boat it is a
> > >> concern having to keep good zincs on the boats. In Seattle
> > >> we have to replace zincs sometimes as often as every 4
> > >> months. I would not recommend buying an aluminum or steel
> > >> boat unless you were ready to take off cruising.
> >
> > I'm somewhat aware of, though not knowledgeable about, the
> > electrolysis problem. I have seen metal boats in my local
> > harbor with big zincs dangling off the boat on a hefty ground
> > strap w/a clamp on a ground point on board :-) and guess I
> > might resort to something similar in a marina. the boat is
> > likely to be anchored out or hanging on a mooring at least half
> > the year. should I be more scared of electrolysis than of
> > osmosis, rust, or dryrot and damprot? I dunno. seems to me
> > you pays your money and you takes your risks, no matter what
> > the hull material.
> >
> > I believe this boat currently has a coat of bottom paint
> > containing zinc in some form.
> >
> > >> 2) The engine on this boat is hard to get parts for and seems to me to
>be
> > >> underpowered for a boat this size. If it is running fine now it will
>be an
> > >> issue down the road. If you are going cruising it will be even harder
>to
> > >> find parts in remote places.
> >
> > parts are still available from Sabb, they are pretty responsive
> > and they promise to support the 10 hp engine for 10 years at
> > least. but it is very expensive to get the parts shipped to
> > the US. I am familiar with this problem because of having a
> > 20+ year old Volvo on the boat I'm sailing now :-) I think it
> > would be wise to obtain a complete kit of spares up front.
> >
> > after Sabb orphans the engine, I suppose I would hope to
> > repower with a fuel cell if the technology is there by then.
> > if not, the smallest possible saildrive perhaps. the Sabb is
> > attractive to me because it is 1 cylinder, very economical of
> > fuel, and can be hand started. one drawback is that
> > Sabb does not recommend using bio-diesel.
> >
> > if I really acted on my principles I would have no engine at
> > all :-) but my seamanship is not up to sailing engineless yet.
> > the Colvin hulls actually motor quite well with small engines.
> > I have driven the Witch under power and it is adequate for
> > motorsailing in adverse conditions, or for docking etc.
> > it is not the most manoeuvrable hull (compared to a fin keel
> > like the Cal 31 I have been sailing the last few years) but
> > that is the price of a cruising rather than racing design...
> >
> > anyway, minimal engine is a plus imho, not a minus. I regard
> > the engine as an unfortunate necessity, not as an essential
> > attraction.
> >
> > >> 3) With the long bowsprit you will be paying moorage for the bow
>sprit. It
> > >> is charged by the length overall - not sure if you have considered
>that.
> > >>
> >
> > yes (sigh) I have considered this and it is the price one pays
> > for the Colvin version of the junk rig. the sprit can be
> > demounted but it is not a trivial operation, alas. I would
> > consider a more pure junk such as the Benford dory made famous
> > by Pete and Annie Hill's "Badger", but these are hard to find
> > and usually built of plywood (a whole other set of problems).
> > at least one Gazelle I know has been converted to a purist junk --
> > Laughing Boy, steel -- but this is unusual. most people keep
> > the headsail.
> >
> > slip fees (what you NW folks call "moorage") are expensive
> > where I live. I could not afford to keep the boat on Monterey
> > Bay so she would have to live in the SF Bay somewhere, and the
> > very cheapest rates are over $5/foot/month. so I am painfully
> > aware of what that 6 ft sprit will cost me over a few years.
> >
> > >> Unfortunately because you have already been dealing with the
> > >> broker on this particular boat I am sure they would not want
> > >> to co-broker with me. When representing people looking for
> > >> boats we submit a form for co-brokering rights with the
> > >> buyers name on it. The listing company has to sign off on
> > >> it which they wont do if they have already introduced a boat
> > >> to a customer.
> >
> > actually I have not dealt with the broker at all, except to
> > exchange one email with him. I think the listing with his
> > brokerage is about to expire, or has expired. all my contact
> > has been with the owner. the owner showed me the boat and
> > has answered all my questions so far. the broker has been
> > extremely disinterested, never following up after a cursory
> > response to my initial inquiry. it was because I was frustrated
> > by his unhelpful response that I contacted the owner directly.
> > since the owner tells me the listing with that broker is about
> > to expire, it may not be an issue.
> >
> > >> I would be more than happy to offer my advice to you -
> > >> devils advocate and also recommend a good surveyor should
> > >> you decide to pursue this particular boat.
> >
> > well my first question is whether you agree with me that the
> > owner's asking price is very high.
> >
> > I should note that the sails are quite old and show chafe,
> > mildew, etc. the running rigging is also old, stiff, mildewed.
> > I didn't get a really good sense of the motor condition as the
> > engine bilge area has not been kept clean and it's hard to tell
> > what is new drippage and what is just accumulated crud. there
> > was some fresh water in the cabin bilges, which the owner
> > explained away as "overflow from filling up the fresh water
> > tanks", but there was also at least one deck leack (at a deck
> > prism) which I noted. the porthole surrounds are plastic and
> > imho are at the end of their product lifetime -- they need
> > replacing with metal or wood. the boat does not have legal
> > coast-guard approved running lights so something needs to be
> > done about that. the holding tank is not even strapped down (a
> > minor point but indicative of her unreadiness to go into any
> > kind of weather).
> >
> > in other words there is a fair amount of fitting-out
> > expenditure -- I'm guesstimating $10K or more -- to be faced
> > before this boat is ready for a coastal passage. and that is
> > if there is nothing else wrong, like serious engine trouble or
> > any unsoundness of hull or rig. I feel the owner's asking
> > price (almost $50K!) is rather high given these points and the
> > asking prices of comparable boats I've researched online. I am
> > curious whether you, as an experienced broker, feel that the
> > asking price is excessive. I was thinking that $35K would be a
> > more reasonable price, but I am not experienced in boat buying
> > and selling and so it is hard for me to judge.
> >
> > >> I did have a customer wanting to buy a "Colvin" design steel
> > >> boat in Canada several years ago. He absolutely loved the
> > >> boat but in the end we discovered it wasn't a Colvin design,
> > >> sailed poorly and unsafely and it also failed survey.
> >
> > I feel for him :-) it's hard when a good-looking boat turns out
> > to have lousy build quality. fortunately the provenance of
> > this hull is well established: she was lofted and launched at
> > the (now defunct) Greenwich yard in Canada. the designer
> > (Colvin) speaks well of that yard and says they adhered
> > strictly to his high standards of build quality. so at least
> > we know she is not home-built :-) she sailed well enough on a
> > brief trial (though conditions were not very challenging).
> >
> > >> The
> > >> buyer loved the looks of the boat (not saying that this
> > >> applies to the design you are looking at)
> >
> > it's not so much her looks (though Colvin's lines are appealing
> > to my eye) as her sturdiness and simplicity which attract me.
> > I have spent several years slowly refining my "wish list" for
> > the day when I finally buy a boat of my own (have been in a
> > partnership for the last few years). the end result was a
> > commitment to the junk schooner as my ideal rig. her spartan
> > equipment list also suits me. I had wanted a diesel combination
> > cooker/heater and was surprised to find one on a US boat as
> > they seem more common in N Europe and the UK.
> >
> > Colvin is one of a tiny short-list of architects who have ever
> > drawn purpose- designed junk schooners; so his Gazelles and
> > Witches are prime candidates. one can convert a gaff schooner
> > or a big catboat, but it's a big job and I would rather sail
> > than spend my time boatbuilding :-)
> >
> > the Gazelle I think is too much boat for one aging
> > singlehander, they are over 50 ft with bowsprit rigged, and the
> > costs of ownership (as you note) go up steeply with LOA. the
> > Witch is just about my size; I think I could sand and paint her
> > bottom in a few days rather than a couple of weeks :-) I
> > like the Gazelles but am afraid of buying more boat than I
> > can handle or maintain.
> >
> > >> and I had a hard
> > >> time convincing him not to buy the boat. He bought a
> > >> totally different boat in the end and still has it.
> >
> > while I am not wedded to this particular Witch -- though I do
> > like her a lot and w/be prepared to take on some inconveniences
> > in exchange for her strong points -- I know after visiting her
> > and sailing her that this is the right class or type of boat
> > for me. I liked her ultra-minimalist hardware, sturdy workboat
> > finish, very simple no-frills attitude. the personality of the
> > boat and its architect were a good match for my own
> > personality, if that makes sense :-) I felt comfortable on her
> > deck and confident in the bare-bones simplicity of her systems.
> > I also know that Colvin Witches and Gazelles have been all
> > over the world in all kinds of weather, so the Witch does not
> > feel limiting to me. with her shallow draft she can sail
> > the SF Bay and Delta, but she is strong enough to go offshore
> > when I am ready to do that. the one thing she won't do is
> > race, but I am not interested in racing. if I feel the urge
> > to race I'll go back to sailing dinghies :-)
> >
> > most modern "yachts" I have seen are very nicely "packaged" --
> > pretty veneer surfaces, teak detailing, fancy upholstery, and
> > whatnot -- but they are godawful to repair or maintain, nothing
> > is accessible, and one doesn't get much feeling of strength or
> > sturdiness from the hull or fittings. the Witch is the inverse
> > of this: a bit of an ugly duckling with her workboat look and
> > feel, but she feels very strong and everything important is
> > "get-at-able" for inspection and maintenance. except for the
> > masts themselves, everything about her rig can be repaired with
> > hand tools and spare cordage.
> >
> > if you know of other junk schooners with similar attributes I'd
> > be very interested to hear more about them; traditional Asian
> > junks (3 masted) are also of interest but most of them are
> > timber hulls and (as I said) wood scares me.
> >
> > perhaps you can give me some idea -- if this boat were
> > listed at your brokerage, what asking price would you have
> > advised the owner to advertise?
> >
> > the boat was surveyed 6 years ago when this present owner took
> > possession. the surveyor then found her market value to be
> > $49K US. as you have seen the owner is asking now for more
> > than the surveyed value 6 years ago. I don't know how this
> > strikes you, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me :-) surely
> > it is uncommon to sell a boat for more than one paid?
> >
> > I am thinking of making a low-ball offer, $35K or even $30K,
> > and letting her think it over for a few months. my gut feeling
> > is that the boat is not going to sell at this asking price --
> > unless someone wealthy comes along who shares my enthusiasm for
> > Tom Colvin's designs. most wealthy "yotties" probably wouldn't
> > want a boat with such a small interior and spartan
> > accommodations, so I am hoping the Witch is not going anywhere
> > for a while yet.
> >
> > sorry to babble on at such length, I wanted to answer your
> > questions as fully as possible. your comments, advice,
> > etc. would be of the greatest interest to me.
> >
> > de
> >
> >
>............................................................................
>.
> > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory,
>UCSC:
> > :Mail: de@ucolick.org |
>:
> > :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins
>:
> > :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9
>E76E:
> >
> >
> >
> >